Forum: Small Talk Téma: Alternative English/German deck files for CardTable ----------------------------------------------------------- Dearlove: Since this seems to be the place to discuss this... I've played one game using CardTable from the Blue Moon Liga site and thought that the English support in the pop up text could be improved. Based on that if a job's worth doing, do it yourself, I've created modified some modified deck files. Because English only isn't what you want playing against a German the files are English and German, but English first. So what's new. First everything is fully dual-language, and includes card names, icons and even words like Support and even Moons in English as well as German. Second I've reordered things. I found that, trying to learn the interface as well as play, I sometimes pulled out the wrong type of card, so I've made the Character/Booster/Support/Leadership type more prominent. I've also change the 6/3 format to 6F 3E which I think is clearer (and fortunately based on our common heritage we have similar words for the elements). The one case I've removed information is that I've retained the [5F] notation for a shield, without using the word. There are some other minor changes (deck initial letters for example). The cards are English first then German, which works better for an English speaker. I should image a piece of Perl or something similar could create a German then English version in less time than its taking me to type this. Note that where the card names is the same in both languages I don't repeat it. Only the card names and the general reformatting are mine, fortunately the English text had already been entered. (I proofread it incidentally, should anyone care.) Germans may find having the original and translated names together interesting. The subtle change in the Khind names is odd. It's still not perfect for the English user, the card types are still in German for constructed deck building. This takes renaming directories. I may do that sometime. The card images being in German is no problem at all I think - you can't read the text anyway. Whether you'd be allowed to use these files in the online league I've no idea. Obviously comments, corrections (I hope not, but always possible, and I found quite a few myself checking them) etc. welcome. If the Blue Moon Liga people want to pick this up, they are more than welcome on the one condition that if they find and correct an error they also let me know about it. Almost forgot. Where are they? At http://www.mnemosyne.demon.co.uk/bgames/bluemoon. I should note that this is a completely unofficial project (I haven't even mentioned it to anyone official, I'm actually relying on the acceptability of the Blue Moon Liga site). Ruwenzori: @Dearlove: thanks for the new texts. I had exactly the same problems as you described. It is much more useful now. I will also care for the German rearrangement and sent you the result for upload to your site soon. best regards Ruwi PS: German flipped version has been sent to Dearlove for Uploading to his website. Randan: Great Work Dearlove!:oSure, we would like to pick it up. We will put your DataFile and your Standard Decks in the Next version of "Blue Moon CT". I found a few Errors within your German Cardnames for example you had written "Banne den Gegne" you forgot the "r". The right Name of the Card is "Banne den Gegner". But its not a big Problem, i can over wright them.:wink: Greetings Randan Ruwenzori: I think someone should counter-read all cards to check the correctness (esp. the F/E values) before they can be used for tournaments. If a proofed version is available, I can repeat the step of flipping the English/German texts. But what about other languages? The flip programm could easily generate any combination of 2 languages, provided that someone volunteers to translate the texts to that language. And of course one language that both players would understand should be present in each of the players decks. Ruwi KivasFajo: Dearlove hat folgendes geschrieben: It's still not perfect for the English user, the card types are still in German for constructed deck building. This takes renaming directories. I may do that sometime. The card images being in German is no problem at all I think - you can't read the text anyway. Whether you'd be allowed to use these files in the online league I've no idea. I think in the next version we should offer the English/German and the German/English version of the Blue Moon DataFile. I'm not sure if we should additionally offer "only German" and "only English" versions? It is also possible to install the (German) images into translated folders (for example: Aqua Anfuehreraktion + Aqua Leadership) without increasing the size of the setup. I have to adjust the script that automatically updates existing decks in order to support this dual-language changes, but this is also possible. I'll do the translation of the folder names myself (including the translation in the English/German DataFile). Please let me know as soon as there are proof-read versions of the English/German and German/English DataFiles available. It is not necessary to translate the standard decks, because the deck update feature of the setup takes care about that. Dearlove: Randan hat folgendes geschrieben: I found a few Errors within your German Cardnames for example you had written "Banne den Gegne" you forgot the "r". The right Name of the Card is "Banne den Gegner". But its not a big Problem, i can over wright them. (Smiley removed, that's not an error in the last line above.) I took the names from the original files: but in the cutting and pasting I did I might have clipped a name or two (or three, or ...). I'd appreciate knowing what the corrections are, so I can update my copies. I've been sent a flipped version, so obviously I want to check if that's before or after correction too. I see someone else has said they should be proofread before tournament use. Absolutely, the more the better. Dearlove: KivasFajo hat folgendes geschrieben: I think in the next version we should offer the English/German and the German/English version of the Blue Moon DataFile. I'm not sure if we should additionally offer "only German" and "only English" versions? Perfectly reasonable - except that it might be reasonable in an online league to say that it may be reasonable to request a player to use his opponent's language in second place. By the way, if you all get everything corrected, multiple language versions, etc. done without needing me, good. I do want however for there to be no known errors on my website (whether by correction or withdrawal when in the mainstream). Incidentally the original texts - did someone have to type that in from the cards, or did you manage a shortcut? I couldn't find a single error in the English special power text - and all the line breaks were as on the cards. (Even my copy of the official spreadsheet doesn't have that.) If it was hard work, my congratulations to whoever did it. JeffK: KivasFajo hat folgendes geschrieben: I think in the next version we should offer the English/German and the German/English version of the Blue Moon DataFile. I'm not sure if we should additionally offer "only German" and "only English" versions? I don't think you need English only versions, or German only versions. I think the idea of having German/English or English/German files is the best. I wouldn't install English only files, even though I don't know German, simply out of consideration for opponents whose preferred language might be German. KivasFajo: @JeffK: Even if you can change the language of all your decks immediately before a game by just running the last setup/update again? JeffK: I don't found the German text all that distracting, so I would just keep it set up with English/German. Since Christopher Dearlove went to all the work of adding in the english card names I have no problem building a deck, which was the main difficulty with the current official version. I actually think his version is the perfect compromise. Ruwenzori: I would prefer to have the 2 language version only. Every other solution seems too much complicated for me. Ruwi Ruwenzori: I did the proof reading for the complete Set File and sent the en/de and the flipped de/en version to dearlove.Should be sent to KivasFajo to make the 6 Standard Decks out of the Set (when I got this right - setup can do this job). I found some typos, corrected card types in Flit cards, and replaced the original texts by those corrections to be found in German FAQ (mostly incorrect translations to German). F/E values and moon numbers were always correct already. Because lack of time I did not make a change history. It can be done by words document compare option or similar software. Have fun... Ruwi Dearlove: Ruwenzori hat folgendes geschrieben: I did the proof reading for the complete Set File and sent the en/de and the flipped de/en version to dearlove. Thanks for that. I've put the corrections into the separate deck files (I think correctly, but I don't have a tool to do it automatically) but only for English/German, German/English is just Ruwenzori's flipped overall file. The only changes I've made to the combined files are to the comment lines at the top (the original had an error, also expanded credits). The files are on my web site. Zitat: Should be sent to KivasFajo to make the 6 Standard Decks out of the Set (when I got this right - setup can do this job). I'll let someone else do this. Zitat: I found some typos, corrected card types in Flit cards, and replaced the original texts by those corrections to be found in German FAQ (mostly incorrect translations to German). Interesting, I hadn't heard about these. I'm just assuming official and correct. Ruwenzori: regarding FAQ-corrected texts: yes, your texts were those printed on the German cards. But later on people found errors, most of them translation errors into German language (e.g. "if I retreat now..." has been translated into German without the "now" - meaning something quite different, you could retreat the whole game without the word "now") and one of them making a correction on the printed text, which was just wrong (this is the text on the 3 Terrah storm cards, the word "total" had a misinterpretable meaning and is now clear). [s]Pls. find the 6 flipped German Standard decks enclosed.[/s] uh this forum can't strike code. OK then imagine this line to be striked thru :-) edit: Attachment deleted, now in CardTable Setup v2.2 included. Ruwi KivasFajo: FYI, I finished my new BlueMoonCT-Setup 2.2. You can download it from the Blue Moon League page. Ruwenzori: Thx @all, great result now. Ruwi Dearlove: Ruwenzori hat folgendes geschrieben: your texts were those printed on the German cards. I take no credit for any of the German texts, names etc. Unfortunately it is quite possible (I haven't checked) that I do take blame for errors introduced cutting and pasting them from place to place. But we seem to be OK now. KivasFajo: Actually I made some slight changes (added a hyphen after the leader names) and a slight correction (Water Spirits card) myself, and I renamed all the folder names of the cards, but I didn't add myself to author list at the top of the DataFile. But I thought you both - Dearlove and Ruwenzori - contributed most to the revision of the DataFiles, so I added both names in both files. BTW, if we should find any mistakes, we can fix them with a small update. Dearlove: KivasFajo hat folgendes geschrieben: FYI, I finished my new BlueMoonCT-Setup 2.2. You can download it from the Blue Moon League page. I've taken it down off my web site. Having it adopted as standard means there's no need for it there, and just potential confusion (apart from that the standard version has done what I never got around to doing and using English name directories). I'm glad at least someone else thinks it's an improvement. On a wider question, how did you do the card scans - by hand youself (I don't need the details), by capturing and compressing those Kosmos provide on their web site (if so I would be interested in the details), or did you get some cooperation from them? Reply directly to me rather than here if you prefer. KivasFajo: I didn't do the card scans myself; I developed the setup script for making it easier to setup CardTable to play Blue Moon, especially the automatic update of existing decks in order to make distribution of DataFile corrections/changes easier. Randan and/or stizn should be able to answer your question. Randan: Hi Dearlove I have downloaded the Cards from the offiziell Kosmos Blue Moon Website. The right Mousebutton is locked on the Website. Thats why i had to save each Site from each Card to my Desktop. ;) It was a bit work, but it was lesser than scan each Card by hand :) Greetings Randan kilrah: Wrong browser Randan. A good one would let you disable that right click blocking... Ruwenzori: Dearlove hat folgendes geschrieben: Having it adopted as standard means there's no need for it there, and just potential confusion Very reasonable, I deleted the uploads in this thread, too. Ruwi Dearlove: KivasFajo hat folgendes geschrieben: BTW, if we should find any mistakes, we can fix them with a small update. I've found one. Half the leader cards correctly say 30 Cards/Karten10 Moons/Monde the other half say 30 Karten10 Monde (I haven't checked the German/English.) I suspect this was me, but haven't confirmed. Not really worth a reissue just for this, but can be put on the list for the next re-release, probably Nuernberg time. Lachwurzn: Stupid question... does anyone have a (text) file listing all "special function" texts (not the "flavour" texts at the bottom) of all BlueMoon cards in both English and German language ? Alternatively, is there a "dictionary" of BlueMoon terms for different languages ? This would be of great help for translating any "fan-created" decks/cards into other languages... Dearlove: Lachwurzn hat folgendes geschrieben: Stupid question... does anyone have a (text) file listing all "special function" texts (not the "flavour" texts at the bottom) of all BlueMoon cards in both English and German language ? I don't - I only have the English - and actually Reiner uses an Excel spreadsheet. I imagine there's a similar German spreadsheet, but as I don't need it I don't have it. (It also has unpublished cards on it.) Zitat: Alternatively, is there a "dictionary" of BlueMoon terms for different languages ? This is difficult enough in English if you go the full distance. One of my unfinished projects is classifying all the "patterns" of text to map to when and how they work. (I'm doing this myself; if and when I finish it - it's been stalled for a couple of months - I'll get it verified. But don't hold your breath.) Many patterns are simple ("Now ...") but there are some trickier ones, and one unique one (not published yet). Ruwenzori: @Lachwurzn: I can send you this file the other day. As I have all parts of all cards in a database now, I can rearrange them by will. If you are among the PC Game testers, you can also take the file ..\de\madwer\bluemoon\Sonderfunktion.class (but you will have to strip the control chars) Dearlove: Dearlove hat folgendes geschrieben: Not really worth a reissue just for this, but can be put on the list for the next re-release, probably Nuernberg time. Slightly more significant, the English character cards all have Character/Character rather than Character/Charakter. What the German cards have I don't know. I don't think this one was me, but I'm willing to be corrected. Dearlove: Ruwenzori hat folgendes geschrieben: If you are among the PC Game testers, you can also take the file ..\de\madwer\bluemoon\Sonderfunktion.class (but you will have to strip the control chars) Two things: (a) I'm not sure where that file is being referenced from, and (b) do you mean the CardTable by PC Game, or something else? KivasFajo: Dearlove hat folgendes geschrieben: Dearlove hat folgendes geschrieben: Not really worth a reissue just for this, but can be put on the list for the next re-release, probably Nuernberg time. Slightly more significant, the English character cards all have Character/Character rather than Character/Charakter. What the German cards have I don't know. I don't think this one was me, but I'm willing to be corrected. The German file is correct. At least these are not significant errors, but I may publish a small update for correcting these slight errors (if someone is interested in having them corrected in an official update). Ruwenzori: Dearlove hat folgendes geschrieben: Ruwenzori hat folgendes geschrieben: If you are among the PC Game testers, you can also take the file ..\de\madwer\bluemoon\Sonderfunktion.class (but you will have to strip the control chars) Two things: (a) I'm not sure where that file is being referenced from, and (b) do you mean the CardTable by PC Game, or something else? (a) it is inside the jar file of the PC Game project, at the moment only accessible to beta testers (and I believe, Lachwurzn is one of them). (b) sth else, a private fans project, to be found at the (German) "PC Spiel" section of the forum. Ruwenzori: 2 more errors found. My flip code failed to flip the leader texts "Cards/Karten" => "Karten/Cards" and in the last issue of CT there is an incorrect end of the line: card "/bluemoon/Terrah Charakter/terrah17" "Silento Sol\n\nCharakter/Character\n\n[0F] 0E\n\nTerrah 17T\n1 Mond/Moon" #0000 1 while #000 is the correct ending. But I dont know what difference this makes. Only noticed it while programming. Ruwenzori: Is there anybody aware of a machine readable version of the cards Flavour Texts? Dearlove: Ruwenzori hat folgendes geschrieben: Is there anybody aware of a machine readable version of the cards Flavour Texts? One of my usual unhelpful comments: I have one (Reiner's official one - Excel spreadsheet of all card details if anyone is interested in what tool is used) but I'm afraid it's not available. For a start it has all the unpublished cards on it. The one I have is English only too, although obviously somewhere there's a German language version. Lachwurzn: Dearlove hat folgendes geschrieben: I have one (Reiner's official one - Excel spreadsheet of all card details if anyone is interested in what tool is used) Not that you would answer it, but is the reason for using a spreadsheet that it also contains certain mathematical values for each card ?I always wondered whether there is a strict mathematical model that the BlueMoon card system is based upon... Dearlove: [quote="Lachwurznquote]Not that you would answer it, but is the reason for using a spreadsheet that it also contains certain mathematical values for each card ?I always wondered whether there is a strict mathematical model that the BlueMoon card system is based upon... [/quote] Actually, since I don't know the answer to that one I can speculate. mainly I presume it's just a jolly handy tool, but it also allows things like total values and numbers of moons to be summed, and also has a page (which I've never checked how it was done) which counts distributions of cards (how many 6/1 cards, that sort of thing). Now if you want an unpublished fact, once upon a time there was a more formal relationship between, say, a 5/4 and how many moons it was worth. But when playtesting revealed that the then values made some cards so that they weren't worth picking - or were picked too often - quite a few cards were revalued the relationship became less clearcut (and never was clearcut for cards with special power text). Lachwurzn: Dearlove hat folgendes geschrieben: Now if you want an unpublished fact, once upon a time there was a more formal relationship between, say, a 5/4 and how many moons it was worth. But when playtesting revealed that the then values made some cards so that they weren't worth picking - or were picked too often - quite a few cards were revalued the relationship became less clearcut (and never was clearcut for cards with special power text). This leaves two interpretations for me: either the "more formal relationship" was not perfect and it was easier to rely on heavy playtesting instead of investing into a perfect mathematical model or psychology plays an important role in picking any cards anyway. I personally prefer the latter one as everybody seems to have his "most-loved" cards not so much for their theoretic value but based on deck preferences, card illustrations, fad, waning/waxing moon (as we have a local saying in German) or simply a very personal way to play the game at all. But thanks for keeping us interested with little snippets of information about the game development background. It's fun to read this.. ;-) Ruwenzori: @Dearlove: thank you for your comment anyway and the insight you gave. I judge it not to be useless. Dearlove: Lachwurzn hat folgendes geschrieben: This leaves two interpretations for me: either the "more formal relationship" was not perfect and it was easier to rely on heavy playtesting instead of investing into a perfect mathematical model or psychology plays an important role in picking any cards anyway. I don't think a perfect mathematical model would be possible even without cards with special power text. With it, no chance. That's even if you ignore psychological effects. How can you possibly decide whether, for example, a 5/3 or 4/4 is better? This depends on how often you get to play the 5/3 as a 5 or as a 3. But even then is the difference between 5 and 4 more or less significant than between 4 and 3? The game is too complicated to model (and not just slightly) so playtesting is essential. Playtesting isn't perfect of course; it probably won't actually answer the 5/3 versus 4/4 question. But if it shows them similar, then they should have similar costs (and a 5 point scale helps there, it makes marginal calls easier - they become the same). Of course there are mathematical models that would be good enough. For example suppose we adopted the formula moons = (maximum value - 4). This (which isn't the original, I've just made it up) would give us a quite playable game (apart from the -1 moons of a 3/3 etc.) but then Aaralia-Aqua-Secunda would be the indisputably best 0 moon character (well, there are icons, but I'm ignoring them for now). This is the sort of thing that playtesting shows up. So you choose either mathematical purity, a one-off adjustment, or a new, more complicated formula, such as (maximum value - 4) + (1 if values are equal). In some senses there's no difference between the latter two. Pick any set of costs and it's possible to fit a formula to them. For example I think that the published character cards without icons or text all are fitted by moons = maximum(0, (maximum value - 4) + (1 if if values are equal or differ by 1)) (I may be wrong, I've just tried to bodge something together. In many ways it would make my point better if I have missed something and need another term.) And of course to start with you might as well use a simple formula, it makes a convenient starting point - and you can only test something specific, you can't test an abstraction. Psychology is important of course, but that's another matter entirely. Of course since only a certain number of people made cost suggestions (and only one made final decisions) the existing costs certainly reflect the psychology of those people at least to some extent - probably more on special power text cards however. Lachwurzn: Your formula is extremely interesting and seems to work pretty good forall the cards I've looked at. Would it then make sense to expand it with saying for example that for each icon (shield, retrieve, protected free, pair, gang) one should add an additional moon ? Special power text of course is even more complicated, but I think that this could be worked out with some testing. Please understand that this is not only very much interesting for understanding the currently exisiting official cards but even more for our "fan cards" which usually cause a lot of discussion concerning their "moon values". I would really love to expand a bit more on this subject on would be glad for any feedback or ideas that you have on it ! Dearlove: Lachwurzn hat folgendes geschrieben: Your formula is extremely interesting and seems to work pretty good forall the cards I've looked at. Would it then make sense to expand it with saying for example that for each icon (shield, retrieve, protected free, pair, gang) one should add an additional moon ? OK. I'm going to pretend I know nothing more than all the rest of you do and just look at the cards and see if your suggestion works. I'll start with the PAIR icon. It doesn't seem to have a fixed cost. Starting with my formula (but as I said, it's just an ad hoc formula from the cards, it's got no secret knowledge in it) how much do we pay for a PAIR icon? On a 6/1 - 0 moons On a 5/3 - 1 moon On a 5/2 - 0 moons On a 4/4 - 1 moon On a 4/2 - 1 moon On a 3/3 - 0 moons Not an obvious pattern. (And if there were three or more matched, like Flit boosters?) Considering other icons, FREE is obviously anything but free, in fact clearly you need to tear up the above formula and start again. Actually we only have three FREE characters, and they have moons equal to their maximum value, but extraopolating that would be tricky. GANG again needs a new formula. Maybe you can work one out, I'll pass for now. RETRIEVE? Actually it seems to be worth 1 moon - provided you add it before increasing to zero if negative. (I think, I may have missed something.) Shields? Not enough data points (only two I think outside mutants, and they have zero values) Then there are boosters and supports. It would appear that for similar values, supports cost more than boosters (obviously) and boosters cost more than characters (or rather, for similar costs you get lower values). There may be ad hoc formulae to be derived, but I'll pass for now. Zitat: Special power text of course is even more complicated, but I think that this could be worked out with some testing. Not a formula. Special power text is so irregular, there are no patterns to form formulae from. Of course testing is moons were decided, but card by card. Zitat: Please understand that this is not only very much interesting for understanding the currently exisiting official cards but even more for our "fan cards" which usually cause a lot of discussion concerning their "moon values". I would really love to expand a bit more on this subject on would be glad for any feedback or ideas that you have on it ! Here we have a problem. I don't look at fan cards. There are a few words in the FAQ on this. I'm afraid this isn't going to change. I can really only state three principles, all fairly obvious. - Where cards can be arranged in a sequence, the moon costs should also be so, so that where a card is better than another it is not cheaper (it may be the same cost as we don't have enough dynamic range to always be greater). - Moons are only relevant to constructed decks, so you have to construct decks to estimate costs. You want two points: that there are no cards that are "must buys" (and a minimum of "never buys" but this is less critical) and that decks with 10 important moons should be similarly strong, which means that if a card is particularly strong in one environment (other than its home deck, which is irrelevant) it has to be costed for where it is most valuable. - Get as many opinions from people who know what they are up to as you can. But don't necessarily take a majority vote - where there's a big discrepancy, try to understand why. Actually I have a fourth principle, but I'll hold that one for now. And beware of the final point of my second principle - you haven't seen all the environments. (Hey, I had to do that somewhere.) Lachwurzn: This is really interesting and we very much appreciate your comments and ideas on it ! Zitat: Here we have a problem. I don't look at fan cards. There are a few words in the FAQ on this. I'm afraid this isn't going to change. Actually, we don't expect you to do this (we fully understand and accept your approach here). It's not necessary anyway as all this can be done from a theoretical point of view and by taking a look at the official decks only. I justed wanted to explain why this discussion topic is so interesting for us... Zitat: It would appear that for similar values, supports cost more than boosters (obviously) and boosters cost more than characters Agreed. No discussion about that. Zitat: RETRIEVE? Actually it seems to be worth 1 moon - provided you add it before increasing to zero if negative. I have to admit that my over-simplified idea of ading a moon for each icon was derived from the RETRIEVE icon and extrapolated from there. You proved quite well that this rule is complete nonsense except for the RETRIEVE case - thanks for expanding on it. Zitat: Actually we only have three FREE characters, and they have moons equal to their maximum value, but extraopolating that would be tricky. True. Given the small "sample", there is no way to have a good statistical approach on it. On the other hand, even a tricky theory is a good one as long as it works. We'll see as soon as the Aqua and Pillar appear and re-evaluate the rule then... Zitat: Special power text is so irregular, there are no patterns to form formulae from. Well, you are probably right that there is no general formula for it, but nevertheless I can see certain patterns which then could be "added up" for the total "moon value" of a card... + a character card: seems to have a base value of 0 moons (unless higher as stated by your formula) + a leadership card: seems to have a base value of 1 moon + a booster card: seems to have a base value of 1 moon +an instruction that allows to discard a number of opponent's cards (or fire or earth values): seems to have a base value of 1 moon + an instruction which disallows to play cards of a certain type: seems to have a base value of 1 moon + an instruction allows me to play any number of cards of a certain type: seems to have a base value of 1 moon + an instruction that allows me to attract one dragon directly: seems to have a base value of 3 moons +an instruction to draw additional cards: seems to have a base value of 2 moons + an instruction to attract one additional dragon if my opponent retreats (or the opposite of it): seems to have a base value of 2 moons +an instruction influencing the fire or earth values of other cards: : seems to have a base value of 1 moon etc. etc. I may be totally wrong on this approach at all, there will be exceptions to the rules and there are for sure a number of cards that defy any rule at all, but a set of basic principles would certainly help us. Zitat: Get as many opinions from people who know what they are up to as you can. But don't necessarily take a majority vote - where there's a big discrepancy, try to understand why. This is exactly what happens with the "fan cards" today. Discussion is based on people's opinion and using a non-scientific voting mechanism can usually easily have everybody agree on a certain moon value (plus/minus one, but this is statistically irrelevant ;-) and then have it decided by a single person. To make this process easier, your basic principles (and we're for sure curious about your fourth one) are certainly of help. Dearlove: Lachwurzn hat folgendes geschrieben: Well, you are probably right that there is no general formula for it, but nevertheless I can see certain patterns which then could be "added up" for the total "moon value" of a card... It would be interesting if you could find a pattern - as it (probably, I can't actually read Reiner's mind) mostly would be finding a pattern which wasn't consciously designed in. That said there are some rules, but some are backwards. For example the Holy Dragon cards which gain a dragon (Charm, Beguile, Impress) are all 4 moons. Playtesting changes would be more likely to be to how much is discarded rather than their moons, as the 4 moons to gain a dragon is attractive. Zitat: a leadership card: seems to have a base value of 1 moon May be deliberate that there are no zero cost leadership cards, or maybe there are zero cost leadership cards to come. But even the one cost leadership cards can be a bit weak. Zitat: a booster card: seems to have a base value of 1 moon There are free booster cards in the Mimix deck. Actually I think these are often extremely good value in a number of decks. But not in a Khind deck. Zitat: I may be totally wrong on this approach at all, there will be exceptions to the rules and there are for sure a number of cards that defy any rule at all, but a set of basic principles would certainly help us. There certainly isn't a secret document circulating with rules. I'm sure Reiner started with specific ideas, and later revaluing left some alone, modified some, and made some unrecognisable. The most obvious one which survives is the breakpoint at 2/2 for characters with text (except GANG and FREE characters, and mutants - and probably something else I've forgotten). No one actually ever spelled this out, it was just obvious, and so no one made any suggestions which broke this. (Not that many suggestions were needed, but there were a few cards which were replaced after I came in. Obviously much, much, more happened before I was involved. It's worth noting that the eight decks were all finished in all their essentials before I was involved, I just was involved in the tweaking. One of the decks was definitely too strong, for example, so it was massaged down a bit. And there were many moon changes and quite a few name changes.) Zitat: To make this process easier, your basic principles (and we're for sure curious about your fourth one) are certainly of help. My fourth one is in some senses a red herring. But there are a few forthcoming cards that to explain the costs I'd need to say "this cost is as it is basically for reason X" and as reason X isn't one of my three principles I decided I'd call it a fourth principle. But it's not fundamental like the others. Lachwurzn: Sorry, I accidentally hit Edit rather than Reply, didn't notice I had and because I'm moderator here, it let me stomp all over your posting. I hope if I leave this here you can rebuild it. The quotations in my following piece are from what once was here. Now I know I can do that, I'll try to be more careful in future. Christopher Dearlove Dearlove: Lachwurzn hat folgendes geschrieben: I somehow believe that you are talking about the KHIND here although you'll never admit this anyway. No, I won't say which. But it could be any of the decks, because after all, what you see is post massaging (not enough, just right, or too much - I hope the middle one). Zitat: I can't imagine any leadership card text that is so weak as to allow for zero moons Oh, I can. Just to be really silly, here's one worth zero moons (well, I think so): Your overall power is reduced to 30 this turn. Is it possible to reduce that 30 and still be worth zero moons? Yes. Can you reduce it to the point where it's still worth zero moons but someone might actually take it? Don't know (and never will because as I said, it's silly - never dare a fool!)[/quote] Lachwurzn: Lachwurzn hat folgendes geschrieben: Sorry, I accidentally hit Edit rather than Reply, didn't notice I had and because I'm moderator here, it let me stomp all over your posting. I hope if I leave this here you can rebuild it. The quotations in my following piece are from what once was here. Now I know I can do that, I'll try to be more careful in future. Christopher Dearlove No problem. I'm also moderator for certain forum sections and this has happened to me twice already. There's no need to rebuild anything as you quoted my original text (and they were by no means worldshaking anyway)... Lachwurzn kilrah: Actually, Dearlove,I'd consider taking that card into my deck. Any card that comes with a free symbol (a leadership card is almost the same here) and has 0 moons has its uses, if only to have a fast depleting deck. KivasFajo: Sorry, I think no one said that this card would have a FREE symbol. JeffK: KivasFajo hat folgendes geschrieben: Sorry, I think no one said that this card would have a FREE symbol. His point was that Leadership cards are so easy to play that they might as well have a FREE symbol on them.They are, in fact, easier to play than cards with FREE symbols since you can even play them before retreating. Thus, they're pretty good for running out your deck. Jeff K. KivasFajo: Okay, you are right. I misunderstood his sentence. However, as you cannot play more than one leadership card per turn, having many leadership cards (i.e. more than five) in your deck comes with a risk of getting a blocked hand. Dearlove: KivasFajo hat folgendes geschrieben: However, as you cannot play more than one leadership card per turn, having many leadership cards (i.e. more than five) in your deck comes with a risk of getting a blocked hand. Funny you should mention that ... Dearlove: JeffK hat folgendes geschrieben: Sorry, I think no one said that this card would have a FREE symbol. His point was that Leadership cards are so easy to play that they might as well have a FREE symbol on them.They are, in fact, easier to play than cards with FREE symbols since you can even play them before retreating. Thus, they're pretty good for running out your deck. [/quote] They don't of course add to the cards in your combat/support area, which is the other major benefit of FREE cards. In effect the question is would you take a zero moon Leadership card with the text "This card has no effect"? As a related question, would you pay a moon for a FREE support card with zero values and no text? JeffK: Dearlove hat folgendes geschrieben: His point was that Leadership cards are so easy to play that they might as well have a FREE symbol on them.They are, in fact, easier to play than cards with FREE symbols since you can even play them before retreating. Thus, they're pretty good for running out your deck. They don't of course add to the cards in your combat/support area, which is the other major benefit of FREE cards. In effect the question is would you take a zero moon Leadership card with the text "This card has no effect"? As a related question, would you pay a moon for a FREE support card with zero values and no text? Certainly free characters/booster/support cards have advantages over leadership cards. They're generally better if you think you're going to win a fight, thus helping you get the 2 dragon win. Leadership, however, is certainly better if you want to retreat, since you can play one before retreating but can't play a character. Would I take a 0 moon "blank" leadership or a 1 moon "blank" character?Definitely not in reply to both. The moons savings just wouldn't make up for the lack of impact of the card. Especially since there are zero moon characters that actually have fire/earth values, and some very nice 1 moon leaderships (Enthrall Opposition and Distract Holy Dragon, for example). Your opponent would not have their play forced in any direction, which is just not a good strategy. While support cards are, generally, more valuable than booster cards (for example), that's because their effects last an entire fight instead of one turn. Remove those effects and they become of equal value. The relative values of character vs. booster vs. support vs. leadership are based on the assumption that these cards will have some sort of effect on your opponent's play. The concept of a "blank" card is so foreign to the game that I don't know that it has much value when discussing the relative worth of the different types of cards. At least, based on the current playing environment, that is. ;) All this, of course, is assuming that running out your deck is what you want to do in the first place, and does not take into account the specific texts one might find on said cards (not the theoretical "blank" ones), or the specific situations that one might find oneself in. :) Jeff K. kilrah: For some races (Hoax mainly) I'd consider paying a moon for "a FREE support card with zero values and no text" in order to reach the 6 Card limit for 2 Dragons? Of course it largely depends on the deck building strategy. I actually would prefer a booster however. Dearlove: kilrah hat folgendes geschrieben: I'd consider paying a moon for "a FREE support card with zero values and no text" in order to reach the 6 Card limit for 2 Dragons? I actually would prefer a booster however. Why a booster? Both count towards six cards of course. The support has the minor advantage of not messing up the Khind, but that's incidental (I trimmed your quote above). They are differently vulnerable to removal cards (I haven't checked which are more vulnerable, boosters or supports - actually perhaps I should, although if this is your reason you can tell me). Other than those points I can't see a major difference when the card has no effect. JeffK: kilrah hat folgendes geschrieben: For some races (Hoax mainly) I'd consider paying a moon for "a FREE support card with zero values and no text" in order to reach the 6 Card limit for 2 Dragons? Of course it largely depends on the deck building strategy. I actually would prefer a booster however. Why, when there are one moon boosters and supports that actually DO something? Fireblast which is a 3/2 booster onlycosts 1 moon. Flickering Fires is a 1/1 support that also prevents your opponent from playing leadership cards, and only costs 1 moon. And this is just from the Vulca deck. Not to mention the two zero moon Mimix boosters (1/2 and 2/1 respectively). Given current card environment, putting any blank cards into your deck just doesn't make any sense, as far as I can see. Jeff K. kilrah: @Dearlove: Indeed I think that booster are less vulnerable. There are less cards that affect them I think. Also most cards can only attack active cards, so again a booster is saver. Finally most people take anti-support cards, while only few take anti booster cards (unless it is free for their race). @JeffK: Its all about the free symbol. When I am the starting player and all goes well I need 4 rounds to get 2 Dragons. With that booser I'd be there in 3. Granted I might pick Mindstorm or the Flit Multi Booster card instead which also cost 1 Moon IIRC. But I would 'loose' a card in hand that way and need to wait for a proper matching card which might be a disadvantage. I do not claim I would take such a card ANYTIME, far from it. But I see some uses for the card. Dearlove: kilrah hat folgendes geschrieben: Indeed I think that booster are less vulnerable. There are less cards that affect them I think. Also most cards can only attack active cards, so again a booster is saver. Finally most people take anti-support cards, while only few take anti booster cards (unless it is free for their race). Actually as far as I can see, this isn't exactly so. I find 2 cards (T29, A30) which affect cards in combat area, hence only boosters and 4 (V14,K06, K07, T19) which affect both (one only with icons, but that applies here). Preventing you playing them the are 3 which affect both (H13, H26, T12/16 as appropriate), 2 which only affect boosters (M28, F10) and 1 which only affects supports (K26). Lachwurzn: kilrah hat folgendes geschrieben: @Dearlove: Indeed I think that booster are less vulnerable. There are less cards that affect them I think. Actually, I just checked all exisiting official cards and found that 7 of them affect booster cards and 7 of them affect support cards. So it's a draw. But it is correct that most cards can only attack active cards, so a booster is "more safe" theoretically.