Blue Moon Fans

Rules - Bounce Back and KhindKin
kilrah - So 13 Feb, 2005 14:24
Titel: Bounce Back and KhindKin
There is a rules dispute going on on the german part of this board regarding these two cards.

When either is played, is it possible to continue the current Gang in the next turn (provided that KhindKin is somehow removed from the combat area). The rules say that one can only expand a gang if the Gang symbol matches AND a gang member was played last turn. So are the rule to be taken literally here or may the gang be expanded anyhow?
Dearlove - So 13 Feb, 2005 16:46
Titel: Re: Bounce Back and KhindKin
kilrah hat folgendes geschrieben:
There is a rules dispute going on on the german part of this board regarding these two cards.

Well, that means that either Sebastian Rapp will see it, decide the answer is clear and give it, and maybe mention it to me, or there will be a private discussion before the answer comes. I think I know the answer, but I'll consult with Sebastian and Reiner before answering.
Dearlove - Di 15 Feb, 2005 00:58
Titel: Re: Bounce Back and KhindKin
kilrah hat folgendes geschrieben:
The rules say that one can only expand a gang if the Gang symbol matches AND a gang member was played last turn.

Not quite. The key rule says "If you already played one or more character cards of the same gang on your previous turns ..." and the plural is important and allows it. Yes, there is a later sentence which says "To keep the gang active, you must add at least one more character card from the gang each turn." but this should be taken as descriptive text, covering the usual case, rather than the defining rule (yes, it might have been better in italics).

So, yes, you can continue the gang. Note that this also avoid having to introduce unnecessary "memory" of how you got to the same position, so is a good thing for other reasons too.
skh - Di 15 Feb, 2005 10:03
Titel:
In this case there is a discrepancy between the german and the english rules on the blue-moon-games website. The german text on the website only mentions the previous turn (singular), whereas the printed german rules also use the plural.

This is not to dispute the answer you gave, of course, I just want to point out that the published rules do not agree here.

cheers,

Sonja
Ruwenzori - Di 15 Feb, 2005 10:41
Titel:
Thanks Dearlove for clarification.

Another question we were wondering about.

Bounce Back: My active cards attack again.
KhindKin: I may play this card into my combat area without pushing the previously active cards under it.

Is there any game-relevant difference between these 2 special texts?

Especially in conjunction when played on active cards, that have special texts showing the word "Now...." in it (is a "Now"-text re-executed then?) Imagine either card played on top of hoax17 "Now I may draw two cards from your hand and discard them." May I again draw 2 cards then?

And in conjunction with mutants. Do I have to fulfill the mutants playing condition again? (we all would say: no, as it already lays in my combat area). BUT: will the contested element change again, or not?

MTIA
Ruwi
Ruwenzori - Di 15 Feb, 2005 12:28
Titel:
For the books: Sebastian meanwhile reappeared and answered in the German forums part as follows:


> May I again draw 2 cards then?

No.


> Do I have to fulfill the mutants playing condition again?

No.

> will the contested element change again?

No.
Dearlove - Di 15 Feb, 2005 20:14
Titel:
Sebastian meanwhile reappeared

Back from Nuremberg I presume. We've been discussing things offline, a couple not yet resolved (like the effects of KK/BB on two Aqua cards - hey, we like to be prepared). We even have one you haven't asked us yet!

As for KK/BB differences, well, KK doesn't have STOP.
Ruwenzori - Mi 16 Feb, 2005 09:50
Titel:
> As for KK/BB differences, well, KK doesn't have STOP.

well ok, thats obvious. I asked for differences in the 2 text passages.

We were wondering why they have not been written alike and could not come to any reason why. Lets say KhindKin like BounceBack:

KhindKin: In this turn none of my cards in my combat area will turn inactive. My active cards attack again.



Would it be helpful to get short english notes about questions and official answers given in the german sector, or is this already covered?
Dearlove - Mi 16 Feb, 2005 20:31
Titel:
Ruwenzori hat folgendes geschrieben:
We were wondering why they have not been written alike and could not come to any reason why.


Probably because they derive from different inspirations. Bounce Back has the obvious derivation of "go again". KhindKin derives from being a sort of member of all gangs - and while you are at it, it treats anything as gang-like. (At least that's how I see/saw the cards, I didn't design them of course, so it's partly speculation.)

KhindKin: In this turn none of my cards in my combat area will turn inactive. My active cards attack again.

I think that for the casual player, that's more confusing. For those here, maybe not, but we're a minority.

Zitat:
Would it be helpful to get short english notes about questions and official answers given in the german sector, or is this already covered?


It's sort of sporadically covered. If there's an easy question in the German section, Sebastian will just answer it. If there's an easy but interesting question he'll pass it on as a curiosity. If it's a tricky question it goes to private discussion, depending on how tricky just me (that's when it's not really tricky, just wanting to confirm it really was easy) or anything up to the full team (Reiner plays the role of judge - also note that usually it's not the yes/no answer that's the issue, it's the best explanation why). Obviously that means I may miss the easy ones, but see the tricky ones. It applies in reverse too. I also occasionally batch up FAQ changes to Sebastian - and when the English FAQ indicates that German answers were input to the English that's because I went down the German list looking for anything I thought I didn't have but wanted. I don't plan to make a habit of that though.

Is that a yes or a no? Not sure. Obviously if anyone does it, it won't hurt. I may however not reply to it if I think it's all covered, which may make it a thankless exercise.

But that's my opinion. Anyone else?
Ruwenzori - Mi 16 Feb, 2005 22:50
Titel:
Thanks for the answer about the 2 texts.

On FAQ questions+answers:
Dearlove hat folgendes geschrieben:
Obviously if anyone does it, it won't hurt.

Sounds reasonable.

If there is time, and matters to deal with, I would volunteer to write a short note into the English forums section.
Ruwenzori - Fr 18 Feb, 2005 09:48
Titel:
Q: If I have an active Gang, and you play a card, that ignores my symbols, and its my turn again, and I play BounceBack or KhindKin: will this keep my Gang active, though my symbols are ignored?

A: (now official): Yes, because the ignoration of symbols has only effect on playing or extending a gang, but these 2 cards keep a gang active because of their special text, not because of a symbol.


edited on 02-22-2005: answer now official.
Dearlove - Di 22 Feb, 2005 01:13
Titel:
Now in the FAQ. Still working on one more BB/KK question (not asked here yet, it's proactive).
Ruwenzori - Di 22 Feb, 2005 14:14
Titel:
Thank you.
Ruwenzori - Mo 10 Okt, 2005 22:49
Titel:
We do have an dispute about this matter in the German forums section and would like to have it clarified even before Spiel at Essen - if possible ...

Q: If I have played a card with a STOP symbol, and you react to it, and its my turn again, and I play BounceBack or KhindKin: will this activate the STOP symbol again or not?

A1: Yes, because the special text keeps the whole card with the STOP symbol active (except "now" special texts, element change, Yin and Yang texts), so the STOP symbol acts again.

A2: No, because the STOP symbol is defined in the rules as " Playing a card with a STOP icon prevents you from playing any further cards during your turn." - and as I do not play the card with the STOP symbol again, the STOP symbol is not valid any more.


Which one is right?
Dearlove - Di 11 Okt, 2005 00:21
Titel:
Ruwenzori hat folgendes geschrieben:
We do have an dispute about this matter in the German forums section and would like to have it clarified even before Spiel at Essen - if possible ...


OK, I'll give you a best answer I can for now.

Zitat:
Q: If I have played a card with a STOP symbol, and you react to it, and its my turn again, and I play BounceBack or KhindKin: will this activate the STOP symbol again or not?

A1: Yes, because the special text keeps the whole card with the STOP symbol active (except "now" special texts, element change, Yin and Yang texts), so the STOP symbol acts again.

A2: No, because the STOP symbol is defined in the rules as " Playing a card with a STOP icon prevents you from playing any further cards during your turn." - and as I do not play the card with the STOP symbol again, the STOP symbol is not valid any more.


I go with A2, and basically because of its argument. But taking it step by step, let's start with KhindKin "I may play this card into my combat area without pushing the previously active cards under it.". That's it. It keeps the card active, which as noted keeps relevant texts active. But STOP isn't defined as "staying active", it's defined in terms of when played, as A2 notes. Now lets consider Bounce Back. Of course as we all know Bounce Back generally behaves like KhindKin, but let's treat it separately. "My active cards attack again.". "Attack" isn't actually quite defined by the rules, but is used in the Zero power rule under Announce power on page 8 of the rulebook. It clearly relates to just the announcement of power, it doesn't equate to re-playing the previous cards. (Note that this is consistent with the Bounce Back/Baku But Q&A.) So STOP doesn't apply. Note incidentally that if it did, it would be because the card was played again, in which case also its special power text would apply again, which no one has suggested (I'm slightly surprised no one has asked the question, but there answers which imply it). So it's A2 again. Of course Bounce Back has STOP which makes the question somewhat academic in that case.

I'll put this in the FAQ list (and the question I invented about Bounce Back and text applying again as it will make things easier) but I may or may not publish it before Spiel. In case I don't (running out of time, I'm leaving for Essen tomorrow and I need to boil down to a usual style Q&A) let me give you a correction to the list I spotted preparing this. (There's a lot of hidden work in answering these questions - I read every Q&A which even mentioned STOP, KhindKin or Bounce Back, plus the card texts and the STOP rules.) One question had a duplicated half sentence, with a spurious "Bounce back" (yes, incorrect case) in it. This is the tidied up version.

Zitat:
Q: If I keep a card active for longer than one turn, can I use its special power text again?

A: Special power texts divide into two groups. The first are those which take effect when the card is played, and thereafter don't have any effect. The second are those which continue to be effective as long as the card is active. Cards in the first group are one of the following: they contain the word "now" or they define a condition on playing a card - the latter includes mutants, Tutu starting "I must", KhindKin [Khind 23, E&I:A deck] ("I may play this card into my combat area without pushing the previously active cards under it.") and Yang [Aqua 12] and Yin [Aqua 13] (both "The next character/booster/support card I play on this turn is treated as if it had the FREE icon."). All other cards are in the second group. Cards in that group containing text such as "On my turn" or "At the end of my turn" may be used on each of my turns that they are active, at an appropriate time. (See also questions in the section Special Power Text: Khind Cards.)
Dearlove - Di 11 Okt, 2005 01:09
Titel:
OK, I found the time to put this online. Actually I revised the quoted Q&A a bit more, putting KK/BB as examples in the question.

And that's that before Spiel. I'll see some of you in person there.

Christopher
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