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Bolga
Blue Moon Fan
Anmeldungsdatum: 14.05.2012
Beiträge: 32
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Thank you for all your comments so far. Here's our take on them.
First, we re-numbered the Cabal cards because we had not done it well. The current numbers are the correct ones.
1. Thank you erml and Mobbi for your rationale about Zephyr. We will keep Zephyr at 2 moons because a) he has 3 earth, b) he can discard an active Hyla card, and c) he can discard an active Buka ship. And since all cards on a Buka are also discarded when a ship is discarded, it's powerful against the Buka.
2. Anyone else believes Black Cat isn't costed well in terms of moons? We think he's worth more than 2 moons, but maybe not 3. And in such cases we round it up. We lean towards keeping him at 3 moons but we could be swayed if other people don't agree.
3. To Helios: there isn't a 1/2 Support card for the Cabal. I believe there is one in another race we created.
4. Induce Unconsciousness: maybe not the best name for the card. But when you are unconscious you can't protect, right? Induce Paralysis instead? Or Induce Weakness?
We cost it at 1 moon.
5. Mind Shaft: when I first read the card I thought it would be quite good. But when we playtested it in out-of-the-box format we hardly find it useful. Quite weak actually because it almost never happened that the opponent we going past to 6 moons and up. We thought about changing it to saying 5 moons instead but then was too strong in constructed play. But even in constructed 6 moons was easy to go below and still compete in almost all the fights. So not a good of a card as it first seems since in practice it rarely makes a big difference. Definitely 1 moon in our opinion.
It's funny you asked the question erml about what happens you already have 6 moons or more because it actually never happened that when we played Mind Shaft the opponent had at least 6 moons. In the 70+ hours of playtesting, not once. But your question is very valid and we added text to the card to address that situation.
6. Draco: why against Flit character cards? To balance the Cabal out against the Flit. We added the exception about protected cards. Thank you for pointing that out Mobbi.
7. Wolf: he is quite powerful. Very annoying. The threat of possibly having to retreat is more powerful than you may think. Combined with his higher values, we feel very confident that he's worth 3 moons. Try it out and you will see for yourself. He may not be worth 3 moons, but definitely at least 2 moons and quite possibly 2.5-3. That's why we rounded them up to 3.
8. To Mobbi: what does Standard and profi mean? For playtesting the cards we printed them out, cut them and sleeved them. Cards have their values, icons and text printed out to test. Very easy to do. We're using Powerpoint to format our cards for our playtesting needs.
As for our experience with the game, we have a lot. We have built many decks in the past. Both for playing for fun and for tournaments. We never recorded the decks down, except for the decks Martin and I built for our latest tournament. You can see them in this session report:
http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/876984/our-third-friendly-evening-tournament-6-players-6
When we playtested the Cabal and the Girga in constructed play we used the Mimix and Pillar decks in the session report, and other decks that we found good in the past. Martin created a really fast and efficient Buka deck that we playtested against. We also created Cabal and Girga constructed decks to test against, using our various strong constructed decks from the past. Our playtesting didn't show broken and overpowered combos.
Cheers.
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Zuletzt bearbeitet von Bolga am Mo 30 Nov, 2015 06:50, insgesamt einmal bearbeitet
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Bolga
Blue Moon Fan
Anmeldungsdatum: 14.05.2012
Beiträge: 32
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| Leadership cards are posted. And 1 out-of-affiliation card.
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Mobbi
Gott der Abstrusitäten
Alter: 45
Anmeldungsdatum: 08.04.2004
Beiträge: 6140
Wohnort: Berlin
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| Bolga hat folgendes geschrieben: |
5. Mind Shaft: when I first read the card I thought it would be quite good. But when we playtested it in out-of-the-box format we hardly find it useful. Quite weak actually because it almost never happened that the opponent we going past to 6 moons and up. We thought about changing it to saying 5 moons instead but then was too strong in constructed play. But even in constructed 6 moons was easy to go below and still compete in almost all the fights. So not a good of a card as it first seems since in practice it rarely makes a big difference. Definitely 1 moon in our opinion.
It's funny you asked the question erml about what happens you already have 6 moons or more because it actually never happened that when we played Mind Shaft the opponent had at least 6 moons. In the 70+ hours of playtesting, not once. But your question is very valid and we added text to the card to address that situation. |
Ermls question was the first thing that came to my mind when I read about the card. I would say, that in games with constructed decks, there are tons of situations, where the opponent has at least 6 active moons in combat and support-area! In standard-game, you could be right, but even there the situation is possible, so it has to be defined. You've done this now. For me at least 2 moons, I tend to 3 moons, because in epic fights, this card is a killer!
| Bolga hat folgendes geschrieben: |
7. Wolf: he is quite powerful. Very annoying. The threat of possibly having to retreat is more powerful than you may think. Combined with his higher values, we feel very confident that he's worth 3 moons. Try it out and you will see for yourself. He may not be worth 3 moons, but definitely at least 2 moons and quite possibly 2.5-3. That's why we rounded them up to 3. |
Situation 1:
You play Wolf. I have 6 cards in hand.
Case 1: I want to continue the fight, because I'm convinced, I can win it. I choose two cards (the ones I need least or perhaps I don't need at all), discard them an continue fighting. After this, I have again 6 cards in hand (in general).
Case 2: I could but I don't want to continue the fight, because I don't want to sacrifice two cards. I retreat.
Case 3: I cannot continue the fight.
Situation 2:
You play Sarogakanas the Ancient. I have 6 cards in hand.
Compare this with wolf's cases:
Case 1 is stronger here. Perhaps I want to continue the fight, but I cannot be sure, that I will be able to. Because YOU can discard 2 cards. Perhaps you discard one or even two cards I need for further fighting. Perhaps you discard one or two cards that are needed in the later game. In case 1 (I want to continue fighting) here I cannot be sure, that I will be able to at all.
Case 2 the same and even more. When I decide to retreat anyway and I have the option, to keep two cards than this is much better than here, where I lose two cards in any case.
Case 3 forces me in the same way as above to retreat.
And even when you have only one card in hands, Saro is better than Wolf, because Saro discards it while Wolf gives me the chance to choose if I want to keep it or not. In both cases I have to retreat.
There is no situation in the game where the special power of wolf is better than Saro's. But there are many situations in which Saro's special power is much better than wolf's. Saro has 1 moon, Wolf shall have 3? The higher values of 3 F and 2 E aren't worth two moons imo. Of course this is just my point of view.
| Bolga hat folgendes geschrieben: |
| 8. To Mobbi: what does Standard and profi mean? |
With "profi" I mean constructed decks.
Thanks for the link. That's very interesting. The Pillar-Deck seems to be much fun to play. 
Many questions come to my mind while considering the deck and I think the deck wouldn't stand the test of time in our tournaments, but it shall be able to crush down the opponent sometimes.
All the best and rock on!
P.S.: Sorry for language, it isn't always easy to write down thoughts not in mother tongue. I hope you are able to follow my thoughts.
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_________________
Wer hier lebt, weiß nicht was er morgen verpassen könnte, außerdem werden die Blue Moon-Krieger auferstehen und die Vaqua und Homix und Inquisisandten sowie die restlichen anderen Typen, deren Namen mir entfallen sind, wo war ich stehengeblieben?
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Dwragon
GottdesunerklärlicherfolgreichenDeckbaus
Alter: 39
Anmeldungsdatum: 28.03.2005
Beiträge: 4859
Wohnort: Troisdorf
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So I finally got to see the whole deck. I think it works better in standard than in constructed, but there are new nice ideas.
Now my thoughts on them:
Chars: Shadow,Raven they are both the same, I' don't like identical cards in the same Deck. Maybe make one of them 2/3?
Wolf: I don't like the formulation. I think something like the caterpillars is more in line with the gaming concept: "Until the end of your next Leadership-Phase you have to discard 2 cards or you must retreat."
This way you can counter it with leadershipcards, but not with characters and it's more in line with the rules.
It harmonizes well with Enough of it!, and it is very much like Bashdin. It's harmonizes well with the Caterpillar, because they have to be different cards. 2 moons should be enough so.
Boosters:
Mental strength / Tranquil Mind: maybe change one of them to 2/1 and change claer thought to 1/2? seems to be nicer.
Support:
I'd like the idea of a support card with debilitate. Would be nice vs Flit.
7 supports and 4 boosters seems rather many, maybe 1 support card less and 1 char more?
Psi-Aura: It's slow, but can be powerful. For 1 Moon I would take the 1 Fire away, else I'd give it 2 moons. (2nd Ferro+2nd HackerHank can be painful)
Mind-Shaft: It works like Mena Marn, so you don`t have to write more than: "You may not have active cards with more than 6 moons at the end of you turn."
It can be powerful, but like all other Supports it's hard to get out in this deck, because the chars have not much values. In constructed in can be more interesting against hoax for example. I think it should have 2 moons therefor.
Psychic Imprint: A better candidate for 1/0 than Psi-Aura in my eyes.
Induce Unconsciousness: Not very strong, but at least free. Can not see the card getting picked up in constructed. It could get the debilitate icon.
Leadership cards:
Sensing the Tide: Strong Leadership cards seem to be necessary for this deck. One free dragon seems quite strong in the end. Maybe weaken it a bit? "If you control atleast a dragon, I now attract one Dragon." Else you get a free Dragon just for having it in your starthand.
Unrelenting control: Quite powerful, but I like it very much.
Anticipating the outcome: Seems ok, powerful.
Manipulating the Gullible : A second dragon manipuator as leadership card. I honestly don't like the idea of stretching the rules this much. The special text would be a nice addition for a booster card.
I don't like it that the card stays active after someone retreats.
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erml
Gott des krassmatischen Charismas & more
Alter: 52
Anmeldungsdatum: 18.12.2004
Beiträge: 2316
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| Bolga hat folgendes geschrieben: |
| 1. Thank you erml and Mobbi for your rationale about Zephyr. We will keep Zephyr at 2 moons because a) he has 3 earth, b) he can discard an active Hyla card, and c) he can discard an active Buka ship. And since all cards on a Buka are also discarded when a ship is discarded, it's powerful against the Buka. |
In this case 2 moons are definitely justified.
Here you are in uncharted water. It's the only card able to discard Hyla and (loaded!) ships.
| Bolga hat folgendes geschrieben: |
Manipulating the Gullible
Special Power Text: This card remains active until the next time your announce your total power. If you announce a total power of 3 or less, I immediately attract a dragon. Then this cards stops being active. |
Here you are pushing the limits of the rules to far, imo. For now, Leaderships are active at most the turn they are played, never longer. This card not only is active in the opponents turn, but eventually even after a retreat of the opponent.
| Bolga hat folgendes geschrieben: |
Sensing the Tide
Special Power Text: If I do not have at least 1 dragon on my side, I may now attract 1 dragon. |
Like Dwragon I would tighten the condition of attracting a dragon a little bit.
Just an idea: Now I must discard an active support card to attract one dragon.
Keep on rocking! 
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Bolga
Blue Moon Fan
Anmeldungsdatum: 14.05.2012
Beiträge: 32
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| The rest of the non-affiliation cards and all the other Cabal cards available for building decks with are posted.
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Bolga
Blue Moon Fan
Anmeldungsdatum: 14.05.2012
Beiträge: 32
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Thank you guys for your comments.
You make a good case for reducing Wolf's moons to 2 Mobbi. I will change it to reflect that. Thank you.
Mind Shaft needs the extra text that Mena Marn doesn't have because all cards in the combat AND support areas count towards the total. Since it is possible to play Mind Shaft when your opponent has at least 6 moons in those 2 areas and that it is checked in the End phase, the text is necessary in my opinion.
We appreciate all the other comments and suggestions about the cards. You guys should have been by our side when we were facing challenges in balancing the deck and looking for ideas to modify it. You are good at suggesting ideas.
At this point our objective is not to change the values and/or the spirit of the special power text of some cards. We don't want to do that and playtest again changes we would make. The race is balanced as it is from all the playtesting we did. We are presenting it to you as a finished race and are looking only to finalize the moon values and to clarify the special power text of the cards. I probably should have more clear about our objective. My fault.
But we would like to tap into your ideas in the future when we will be stuck with our playtesting on another race. For example, we just started playtesting our third deck, The Rouser, and no doubt we will need to tweak some cards and will be looking for ideas.
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Dwragon
GottdesunerklärlicherfolgreichenDeckbaus
Alter: 39
Anmeldungsdatum: 28.03.2005
Beiträge: 4859
Wohnort: Troisdorf
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| Zitat: |
| Mind Shaft needs the extra text that Mena Marn doesn't have because all cards in the combat AND support areas count towards the total. Since it is possible to play Mind Shaft when your opponent has at least 6 moons in those 2 areas and that it is checked in the End phase, the text is necessary in my opinion. |
Ok, you have to write that only cards in the combat and support area counst because of the ships.
But you don't have to add that you have to discard cards to achieve this. That is not added on Mena Marn (at least on the old cards, if it's added on the new ones forget my comment) and everyone understands ist right.
I understand your position. You asked for our position and we offered it, you can keep your decks the way you want it.
We play this game for more than 10 years now and have seen many unofficial decks, many which are only available in German.
Here is a link to our unofficial expansion set:
http://blue-moon-fans.com/viewtopic.php?t=6486&start=0
We got many ideas and maybe even have a greater understanding as the game creator considering moons and balance.
But to be honest we rarely play unofficial decks, so we rarely use our own ideas. We like to help you with your new races and can give you a lot of input.
So I think we wold be more interested in seeing your third race and mind craft around it 
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Mobbi
Gott der Abstrusitäten
Alter: 45
Anmeldungsdatum: 08.04.2004
Beiträge: 6140
Wohnort: Berlin
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@Mind Shaft
Hm, I think Bolga had to add the discard-part. You cannot compare this with Mena Marn. Mena Marn refers to character-cards. At the beginning of your turn, you always have the option to play only one character and make e.g. gangs inactive. Supports never become inactive. What to do, when there are 7 moons in the support area? This has to be managed, so he needs the extension in the text.
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_________________
Wer hier lebt, weiß nicht was er morgen verpassen könnte, außerdem werden die Blue Moon-Krieger auferstehen und die Vaqua und Homix und Inquisisandten sowie die restlichen anderen Typen, deren Namen mir entfallen sind, wo war ich stehengeblieben?
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